Posts by Old Goat

11

JW history buffs questions for you.

by Crazyguy in

i was reading the book 'time at hand' by russell dated 1889 volume 2. in the book russell says that the 'day of the lord',' day of trouble' started in 1873.. i thought he was with boubor on the time of jesus so called start of his heavely kingdom to be 1878, of course after boubor prodicted 1878 as the year for armagedon and it didnt happen so he substituted "his presence" instead.

but this book seems to state other wise??

please advise.. also after russell's perdiction of armagedon in 1914-15 did happen, didnt rutherford say some thing to the effect that 'yes the time had ended the gentile times, and were now in a new age and thats why that generation would not die etc.

Old Goat

Barbour and Russell didn't predict armageddon for 1878. They expected "translation" to heaven.

47

Elder and CO just dropped by....

by El_Guapo in

jw
friends

i haven't been to a meeting in over a year, and as you know as soon as you stop attending meetings/fieldservice the "conditional" love becomes more apperant.

the coordinating elder starts off by saying how much he loves and misses me, etc.

i ask him, when was the last time you called or texted me?

Old Goat

This is excellent.

4

More ...

by Old Goat in

dr. de vienne, one of the authors of the soon to be released history book, has posted her introduction on their history blog.

it's interesting, i think, because he shows their approach to research.

it's a bit snippy.

Old Goat

I see that a typo in my initial post describes Dr. de Vienne as a "he." That should be "she."

4

More ...

by Old Goat in

dr. de vienne, one of the authors of the soon to be released history book, has posted her introduction on their history blog.

it's interesting, i think, because he shows their approach to research.

it's a bit snippy.

Old Goat

Dr. de Vienne, one of the authors of the soon to be released history book, has posted her introduction on their history blog. It's interesting, I think, because he shows their approach to research. It's a bit snippy. Worth a read:

http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/

Persecution and Prosecution 1914-1920

by Old Goat in

im interested in the persecution and prosecution of bible students during and immediately after world war i. finding documentation is difficult.

do any of you have photocopies of the appropriate canadian and/or united states national archives touching on this?.

will you scan them to pdf?.

Old Goat

I’m interested in the persecution and prosecution of Bible Students during and immediately after World War I. Finding documentation is difficult. Do any of you have photocopies of the appropriate Canadian and/or United States national archives touching on this?

Will you scan them to pdf?

Can any of you point me to additional material? Say from the UK?

9

Something I Never Understood: Inactive or Disfellowshipped People Shunning Others That Were Disfellowshipped!

by minimus in

jw
friends

i don't know if you experienced this before, but i was always wondering why inactive or df'd jws look down upon others, even not acknowledging their fellow sinners.. any thoughts??

?.

Old Goat

I suppose there are several reasons. I’m still viewed as a Witness. I have very limited contact with “out of the truth” people simply because there aren’t that many here and the only thing we had in common was a religion. But I’m “nice” to them on the rare occasion I see them.

I refused to associate with one in any way. He’s a cruel, vulgar, drug-using, womanizing, abusive man. He uses his position in business to prey on and degrade others. I won’t talk to him at all. He’s my brother.

There are wicked people. He’s one.

For some years we had a pedophile floating around this area. I was chairman of the committee that disfellowshipped him for “playing with” his daughter. That was his description of what he did. He was reinstated after some years. I still won’t talk to him or associate with him in any way. Once a pedophile, always a pedophile.

A shared rejection of Witness practice or theology does not mean that we should all embrace each other. We make choices in life. Some choices are wrong.

Another issue is how deeply ingrained WatchTower practice is in the minds of many ex-Witnesses. There is a persistent guilt factor. And there is embarrassment. Some of those who post here are people of conscience. Some are on this board because they were tossed out for behavior issues, and they don’t like it. There are admirable people here, and fruitcakes, and the vulgar and common. A shared experience does not create bonds.

15

Into Darkness - Jehovah's witnesses history

by Dis-Member in

another video on jehovah's witnesses / watchtower's history.. .

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5jnngqqyvc.

Old Goat

You will see from Schulz and de Vienne's forthcoming book, Separate Identity, that Russell did not hold Adventist doctrines but One Faith (British Literalist) doctrines and that he identified with that group from 1870 t0 1876. Storrs left Millerite Adventism in 1844. If you'd read his magazine you'd know that. Thereafter the Adventist press savaged him, and he hit them back.

Schulz and de Vienne present a detailed analysis of the Allegheny Bible Study Groups theology, including its sources, identifying some of the books, pamphlets and papers they read. It is a mistake to identify Russell as an Adventist.

By the time Russell received the Herald of the Morning (Dec. 1875, not Jan 1876) Barbour had left Adventism. Barbour identified with an Age to Come body thereafter. (Mark Allan’s Church of the Blessed Hope) However he did not accept Literalist belief and was willing to spiritualize bible verses to fit his belief system. Russell was never an Adventist and had a running battle with them.

Russell plainly says that his interchange with Wendell answered his questions about torment doctrine. He also says he did not adopt Wendell's other beliefs. This is verifiable from the pages of Zion's WatchTower.

You will also find in their new book (A Separate Identity: Organizational Identity Among Readers of Zion's Watch Tower, 1870-1887) that Stetson abandoned standard Adventists belief for Literalism. His last years were spent writing for the British journal The Rainbow and for the Age to Come/Literalist paper The Restitution. Stetson details his struggles with Millerism and says in some detail what his later beliefs were.

Russell described himself as a Millenarian. This is a term Literalists applied to themselves. There was considerable conflict between Literalists and Adventists. I've just finished reading an advanced reading copy of this new book. It is due out soon, though I don't know when. It is startling in detail and will, I think, change the picture. I anticipate that their new book will become the standard by which other histories of the Tower are judged.

They present biographies of many of Russell’s associates, giving these men and women back their place in the movement and letting their personalities show through their own words. They drawn on unpublished letters and manuscripts, some of which they reproduce in the book. When they don’t, they tell us in a footnote where to find them.

Details? L. A. Allen, one of the first WatchTower contributors was a young woman who agonized over lost virginity. (Her name was Elizabeth “Lizzie” A. Allen) J. C. Sunderlin was addicted to opium as a result of a spinal wound during the Battle of the Wilderness. Corpulent A. P. Adams used his bulk to intimidate members of his church in Beverly, Massachusetts. Russell’s uncle, a mason, went bankrupt selling roller skates on credit. They name the pastors of Russell’s Congregational Church, tell you where the church was and what the preaching was like. They include a photo of the title page of one of the printed sermons from the church. The detail is endless. And it changes the historical picture in significant ways.

There must be nearly 100 illustrations, mostly photographs. Many of these haven’t seen the light of day in a century or more. Russell’s parents' membership papers in a rebel Presbyterian church, photos of his associates, the title page of sheet music published by J. L. Russell & Son in 1872, one of Sunderlin’s letters … Too many things to list. All fascinating.

I was pleased to see them smack writers on both sides when they perpetuate myth. I've never seen research of this quality in any history of the WatchTower. They do not make unfounded claims, and they footnote everything so you can follow their research trail.

Their first book was Nelson Barbour: The Millennium’s Forgotten Prophet. You should read it. (B&N or Lulu.com) The book due out soon is volume one of a larger work.

Their public history blog is at http://www.truthhistory.blogspot.com/

In the interests of full disclosure, I should say that Mr. Schulz and I used to work together at District Conventions and were in the same circuit for a while. He is one of the few Witnesses I continue to respect. He does not let his status as a Witness color his writing. He calls “a spade a spade.”

Dr. de Vienne is not a Witness, and I only know her through email exchanges and her personal blog (which I find informative and entertaining).

They’re both educators.

50

Need help from JW History Buffs

by ILoveTTATT in

i need help with writing an article regarding vaccinations, organ transplants, and blood transfusions.. i am doing my research using limited amounts of non-wt sources and mostly just the actual wt literature.. what i am having a hard time understanding is:.

most of the articles in the golden age, at least at the beginning of the anti-vaccination stance, are actually written by contributors.

since there are very pro-vaccination articles and then lots of anti-vaccination articles, how can i determine the actual wt viewpoint on vaccinations?.

Old Goat

other sources? Most or all of the Consolation and Golden Age are avaialable on line. But there are also the various newspaper archives. Search their names.

I liked Macmillan. He was a nice guy. I never knew Woodworth, though I saw him at a convention before he died. Macmillan I liked personally.

3